Gekke Gerritt ([info]tenou_k) wrote in [info]japanese,
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x-posted to [info]correctjapanese

So here's this crap 作文 I did last night on a whim. It's pretty sketch, and if someone would point out things I did wrong (which is to say, stylistic tips would be welcomed, but secondary in priority), I would appreciate it very much. We learn through our (manifold) mistakes! *wince*

外国語を習うと、同じ語族の中に言語一を以上習いたいのです。例えば、アイスランド語を勉強していて、他の北欧諸国語も興味があります。でも、アイスランド語に一番興味があっても、ちょっと習いにくいだと思います。それから、ノルウィエー語とか関してる言語を初めて習うのはいい考えだと思います, より安いであろうから。同じように、他の語族にも「gateway language」があります。これ習いやすい言語です。ペラペラなったら、より難しい言語の同じこともう分かるから、難しい言語は安くなります。もしそうなら、どの語族にも、語族の全部言語を習うつもりであれば、こんな「gateway language」を習うのは有用だと思います。語族の中に一番安い言語を選んでペラペラになると、他の関する言語を習うのも安いであろう。ケルシーと言う友達の場合に例えて、最初にドイツ語をペラペラなって、デンマーク語とノルウェイー語を習って、今スウェーデン語とアイスランド語はペラペラ話せても、絶対に分かります。日本語と中国を勉強することはちょっと違いですが、漢字なので相似もあります。漢字の音読みを分かってなると日本語と中国語と韓国語の中に同じ発音がある言葉を覚えるのが易しいだと思います。関する言葉が多いなのです。例えば、英語の「teacher」の意味言葉は日本語では「せんせい」で、韓国では「セィオンサエング」です。それ以上に、英語の「university」や「student」や「library」や「newspaper」って意味の言葉は日本語と韓国語と比べると、たくさん類似点もあります。もちろん、この単語は中国語に関しますから同じそう発音なのに、和語は韓国語の単語に関しません。その上に言うまでもない、関する言語を兼ねて勉強するなら、同じそうな言葉か漢字がまごまごにできますが、まだ分かるであろうから、枝葉末節だと思います。がんばって続けるなら、なんでも習いたい言語ができるね。


The English translation, in case I managed to so mangle my Japanese that my intention became completely scrambled:

When learning a language, one often wishes to learn more than one language within the same language family. For example, I'm learning Icelandic and I also have an interest in other Scandinavian languages. But even though I'm most interested in Icelandic, it's a little hard to learn. So I think it'd be a good idea to learn an related language like Norewegian because i would probably be easier. Similarly, I think other language families have "gateway languages." A gateway language is an easy to learn language. After you've learned it, difficult to learn but related langauges are easy to learn because you already know the cognates and grammatical similarities. If that's the case, then no matter what language family is under consideration, then if you're going to learn all the languages in one language family, learning the gateway language is really useful. Within the language family you pick the easiest language and once you're fluent, it should be easy to pick up the related languages. Take for example my friend Kelsey. First she learned German and then she learned Danish and Norwegian. Now she can understand Swedish and Icelandic, even if she can't speak them fluently she can understand them completely. Studying Japanese and Chinese is a little bit different, but because of kanji there are similarities. If you come to
understand kanji's Chinese readings, it's easy to memorize the pronunciation of the words that are the same or similar in Japanese, Chinese and Korean. There are a lot of similar words. For example, the English word "teacher" is said "sensei" in Japanese and "seonsaeng" in Korean. Moreover, the English words meaning university, student, library, newspaper and more, when compared in Japanese and Korean there are many points of similarity. Of course, these words are all related to Chinese, so even if they are similar, the native Japanese and Korean words will not. Moreover, it goes without saying that if you're studying related languages simultaneously you can become confused by similar words, but since you'll still understand, it's no big deal. If you continue to study hard, you can learn any language you want.


I'm looking at this and laughing over how little effort went into making sure I wasn't just making grammar up, but hey, I'm too 下手 to fix it myself, so here goes.

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  • 19 comments

[info]jessimusashi

July 14 2005, 06:34:04 UTC 6 years ago

I found just a couple things to watch out for - like 'ni' after pera pera and before naru... pera pera ni naru, etc. Some placs it's there, others it's not. And also in your 3rd sentence, da should be omitted - narainikui to omoimasu.

I've not a native speaker, but maybe someone who is can look for more subtle things that might need to be changed.
Good job =)

[info]tenou_k

July 14 2005, 06:39:07 UTC 6 years ago

"like 'ni' after pera pera and before naru... pera pera ni naru, etc."

Ah. Yeah, it's such a pain for me to proofread anything, let alone Japanese. But I see where you're referring to.

"And also in your 3rd sentence, da should be omitted - narainikui to omoimasu."

Hey, didn't know that. Why is that? Or is it something ridiculous that I should already know? I had assumed that since 習いにくい was an adjective that I'd need the copula, unless I'm just forgetting that an adjective + と思う doesn't need one. Which is likely.

Thank you!

[info]keeni84

July 14 2005, 06:50:21 UTC 6 years ago

You only need the だ if it's a な形容詞(na-type adjective) or 名詞 (noun)

にくい is an い形容詞 so you don't use だ at all. Also, as you probably know, with 動詞 (verbs) you don't need the だ either.



[info]tenou_k

July 14 2005, 06:53:39 UTC 6 years ago

Ah. That makes sense. I was trying to think of other situations, what other 形容詞 did. It wasn't helping much.

[info]alixd

July 14 2005, 06:55:57 UTC 6 years ago

The main stylistic thing I find is that when you're writing 作文in Japanese, you don't use the polite form of the verb. It's all だ、-る、etc..

[info]tenou_k

July 14 2005, 07:28:45 UTC 6 years ago

For some reason, that always makes me so uncomfortable. I guess I chalk that up to having so little writing experience in Japanese.

[info]dontbeakakke

July 14 2005, 10:40:16 UTC 6 years ago

rubbish, all of it. :;spits::

[info]ookii_risu

July 14 2005, 15:09:11 UTC 6 years ago

Not a native speaker, but found some things:

語族の中に一番安い言語を選んでペラペラになると

安いmeans "cheap". If you use やすい with a verb, like you did in some parts, it means "easier to ~" So I think what you want to say is, "一番簡単な言語"

Also, I notice you use ~ます in some places, and then use informal things such as ~って in others. ~という

Be careful with this: 関してる (I do this a lot) ~ている is proper, even informally. ~てる is colloquial.

日本語と中国を勉強することはちょっと違いですが

違いがありますが- I think this is correct, or 違いますが I believe the former means "difference" and the latter means "different"

I leave the rest up to a Japanese person. I wrote monthly newsletters in Japanese for my students, and I know how it feels to have my collegue mark the entire thing in red for me to fix, but don't give up! I think it's great that you're taking the time to write things in Japanese!

Just a little thing though from reading this... Japanese may use Chinese characters, but the language is not very similar. Case in point, 手紙 reads as "letter" in Japanese. In Chinese, it reads as "toilet paper". I can read Japanese alright... but going to a Chinese site, I am lost, minus a couple kanji combinations here and there that I can understand.

The pronunciation of Kanji in the two languages is totally different. The Japanese language lacks a lot of sounds that Chinese has. Chinese uses a few thousand more Kanji than Japanese uses. Also, doesn't Korean primarily use Hangul? Korean sounds a lot like Japanese to me, but I cannot make any sense of it. I don't really know how the talk of "gateway" languages fits in with these three very different ones.

Also... this is just my opinion- I'm not trying to offend- but what makes a language any easier than another? I definitely agree with you in that if you work hard, you can learn any language. But it takes time. And even having perfect grammar does not mean that what you say will be understood by native speakers of the language you are learning.

[info]tenou_k

July 14 2005, 17:26:52 UTC 6 years ago

There are a lot of similarities between the Chinese words that found their way into Japanese and Korean, to the point that they could be called cognates. Grammatically the three differ immensely, so they're not related to the extent that French and Spanish or Swedish and Norwegian are. But knowing Japanese kanji takes about a third of the work out of reading something in Chinese (provided you can figure out simplified characters, not always a given). As for Korean, the only similarities are the words that are Chinese in origin (since Korean didn't always use hangul, they used to use hanja in a weird awkward fashion).

What makes a language easier than another is strictly relative to the person learning it. That's why you have to figure it out yourself. I think Icelandic is about half as hard as Japanese, but someone who just can't understand grammatical case would probably disagree. Also, since I read alot, my primary focus would be to understand whatever I'm presented in, not necessarily communicate in it.

And like I said, I was rambling when I wrote this. I think it's a pretty ridiculous idea now, but that's how it came out at 1 in the morning ; )

[info]tenou_k

July 14 2005, 17:27:37 UTC 6 years ago

Also, thanks for the corrections.

[info]ookii_risu

July 14 2005, 19:54:07 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah, I agree that it does depend on the person. It was funny, I went to Japan I was under the general assumption that English was the hardest language in the world, and I found that most of the Japanese people I discussed the subject with thought that Japanese was the hardest language in the world. I wonder how people of other countries feel.

No harm in rambling... I wasn't sure if you were working on a paper or something. すみません m(-ー)m

[info]tenou_k

July 14 2005, 22:12:34 UTC 6 years ago

I think it's a general rule that people always think their own language is either the hardest language to learn period or just impossible for foreigners to learn. I've noticed that the amount this holds true corresponds loosely to the degree of nationalism prevalent in a country. But then there are languages that everyone agrees are hard, like Finnish and Basque and stuff. So hey.

Yeah, if I were working on a paper (for reals, yo) I'd probably make sure, you know, my thesis wasn't really silly ^_^;

[info]akibare

July 14 2005, 23:33:30 UTC 6 years ago

Japanese and English are far apart so it's supposed to be hard to learn one from the other. Korean, on the other hand, the grammar is very similar to Japanese and so it's much easier for Korean speakers to learn Japanese and vice versa (or so I hope, I'd like to learn Korean!)

I studied Chinese in college, and while it's not related to Japanese other than the characters and all the loanwords, being able to read the characters did help a great deal. Even now, I know some Chinese so I can read the headlines, but half the words I say them to myself in my head in Japanese as I don't know the Chinese for it.

I think English is crazy when it comes to things like "run->ran" "sing->sung" "bring->brought". Classmates would ask me, why is it like that? and I just have to say "I have NO idea!" Really, it just sounds right! Similarly though I have people learning Japanese ask about pronunciations of kanji words, where there are two onyomi, which is it? Well, you sound it out, and one is a word you know and makes sense! But there's not usually a logical reason - other than, of course, the different onyomi come from different adoptions and if just happened to know the detailed origin of each word, maybe you could guess, but that's not at all helpful. Just have to memorize them. It's like tough, through, though, cough, hiccough, trough, dough...
"ough," how do you say it? Crazy.

I've worked on programs dealing with verb conjugations and for those, we had one number for each kind of conjugation there is and a data entry person (me) put the correct number on for each word, from a human knowledge of it. When you look at the total list, there were quite a few. English plurals too, had quite a few varieties - you can guess by some rules, but it's not 100% predictable.

Ah, humans!

I have comments about the bits up top but I will put those in another message.

[info]tenou_k

July 15 2005, 02:08:32 UTC 6 years ago

It's funny, before I was very experienced in Japanese, I looked at Korean grammar and thought to myself "These are nothing alike!" but now that I know more Japanese, I look at Korean and notice a lot of the similarities between them. It's really interesting. Although I think Korean grammar's harder than Japanese.

"I say them to myself in my head in Japanese as I don't know the Chinese for it."

I do that too! Although sometimes I'll only know the Chinese for something, or the other way around, but it's funny.

"I think English is crazy"

Definitely. Although stuff like "ring->rang" is pretty understandable if you know more about Germanic languages. Most Germanic languages have a couple of classes of verbs, one of which undergoes vowel shifts in various conjugations. Because English has had a lot of influence from French, these distinctions have eroded or changed, so they're even more irregular.

"Similarly though I have people learning Japanese ask about pronunciations of kanji words, where there are two onyomi, which is it?"

Oof, yeah, that is a pain.

Yeah, language does some weird stuff.

[info]akibare

July 14 2005, 23:34:35 UTC 6 years ago

Also I've heard vague rumors that Finnish has similar grammar to Japanese, do you know if it's true?

Found out today one of my coworkers speaks quite a bit of Icelandic - small world!

[info]tenou_k

July 15 2005, 02:03:01 UTC 6 years ago

As far as I know, Finnish is actually pretty unlike Japanese with respect to grammar. Finnish in highly inflected, so nouns, verbs, adjectives, pronouns, everything, gets inflected with respect to case (like Latin or German), person (like most indo-european languages), number etc.

Although Finnish can sometimes resemble Japanese's subject-object-verb sentence structure, because Finnish has a fairly free word order.

Hooray for Icelandic! I think it would be really cool if I could somehow find a job that required me to move between Japan and Iceland. *dream*

[info]akibare

July 14 2005, 23:45:23 UTC 6 years ago

「外国語を習うと、同じ語族の中に言語一を以上習いたいのです。」
Some things... To say generally "when you..." you should have するとき。「XXXするとYYY」 means that if you do XXX, then as a result of it necessarily in the general case YYY will happen. But here, based on the English version, you are making a suggestion.

Also to say 「したい」is only if you are wanting to do something. If someone is wanting it, you can say 「したいようだ」or 「したいそうだ」or 「したいという」(so, "seems" or "they said..." or "I heard...") or you can say 「したがる」although it's more directly assuming you know and so not as formal(?). But here, if you say "one wants..." it's more you are saying, people...

Ack, I have to go. I will write more afterwards.

[info]akibare

July 15 2005, 04:39:40 UTC 6 years ago

I am not sure of the meaning of "one often wishes to" I think you mean, of average people, they would want to? In that case you can say, 「誰でも…したくなるものです」or「人はだいたい…したくなるものです」If you want to say "people SHOULD" then it's different but reading it now I think you mean usually, ordinary people wants to...

"languages of the same language family" you can do it short, just 「同じ語族の言語」you don't need to mess with the 「の中の」。

To say "more than one", to say XXX以上 is "XXX and above" where XXX is included in. So to say "more than one" is technically 「二つ以上」because you do not include one. 「一つ以上」means "one or more." But, in the case of your sentence, maybe 「複数」is good, meaning "more than one" or "plural." It gives a good sense of contrasting with only one, but not making you think of high numbers.

「外国語を習うとき、人はよく同じ語族の言語を複数習いたくなるものです」

「人はよく…」is "people often..." if you want "people generally..." then
「外国語を習うとき、人はだいたい同じ語族の言語を複数習いたくなるものです」

/つづく

[info]tenou_k

July 15 2005, 04:45:47 UTC 6 years ago

"I am not sure of the meaning of "one often wishes to" I think you mean, of average people, they would want to?"

This was a case of adding meaning to the English translation that wasn't really in (or intended to be in) the Japanese. So the connotation that people in general or "the general human mind" wants to learn more than one language within the language family was really just the result of a sort of iffy translation on my part.

"But, in the case of your sentence, maybe 「複数」is good, meaning "more than one" or "plural.""

Excellent.

"if you want "people generally..." then
「外国語を習うとき、人はだいたい同じ語族の言語を複数習いたくなるものです」"

Awesome.

Thank you very much.
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